#0017 - Sandra

This week's episode features Sandra - a singer, writer, and bibliophile from London. In many ways, this podcast recording is about her story, talent and extraordinary level of resilience as she reflects on adverse childhood experiences, the stigma of abuse, as well as her relationship to the world and people in general. She deliberates on what it means to reach a level of confidence and authenticity, the act of triumph that can be achieved through coming out but also how difficult the journey to finding oneself can be. There are thoughts on the concept of freedom, what it means to be safe, the importance of music and the power of remembering...

This week's episode comes with a trigger warning as it contains graphic descriptions of child sexual abuse (skip 6:45-8:33 if affected).

Things mentioned in this episode:

Randy Crawford 'Don't Wanna be Normal'; Whitney Houston 'I Have Nothing'; Nina Simone 'I Wish I Knew (How it Would Feel To Be Free)'

Transcript

Jess: 0:00

I would like to propose a podcast in which lesbians from all over the world can listen to lesbian affairs and that can include anything from flannel shirts to cats catlitter, cat sitters, hot cat sitters - lesbian affairs themself...Politics, radical lesbians, veganism. Non-veganism, anything! Welcome to - A Lesbian Affair. Hello, we're back for another episode. This is quite a special one because it goes right back to the roots of the podcast. I welcome Sondra, how are you Sondra?

Sandra: 0:35

Hey, I'm good. I'm good. And yeah, I'm good to, I have to thank you because you're literally responsible for the format and the testing out of the podcast and the inception of it in many ways, too. This is probably like the third or fourth time we're recording together. And yeah, I'm really pleased. It's a fourth, maybe fifth.

Jess: 0:57

You've been a very patient soul for sure.

Sandra: 1:00

It's all good. It's all good. It's all good. I'm glad to be back!

Jess: 1:04

It's also special because we're sitting here was chocolate and a glass of wine.

Sandra: 1:07

Yes.

Jess: 1:12

It's still covid 19 pandemic times, but we've made it - at least so far.

Sandra: 1:18

Indeed.

Jess: 1:18

How have you experienced it?

Sandra: 1:19

Oh, lockdown for me. I guess I've had a relatively easy time of it.

Jess: 1:27

We are eating chocolate.

Sandra: 1:28

Yeah, sorry. So yeah, so I live with my two sons. So there was some homeschooling involved, which wasn't too challenging. And I was supposedly working at home, supposedly, no, I was working from home, which was, which was good. I guess. You know, like most people, I did feel very isolated from the community. You know, my friends, you know, the wonderful women I've met. And made friends

Jess: 2:20

I mean, it's interesting, I'm noticing you're saying 'my then girlfriend', so we're not going to go too much into that. But that suggests that the pandemic has come at a price.

Sandra: 2:29

Yeah, kind of. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I don't know if I can totally blame the pandemic, but I feel like the pandemic had quite a bit to do with it. I... - you know, we were in a fresh new thing, and the earth was popping and fizzing and it was just wonderful. And then, yeah, that. And I remember in April, we were saying, you know, we feel now she was saying, you know, she's feeling Things were just getting really, really interesting. And then yeah, you know, physical contact, completely caught off. We talked about all kinds of ways to get around it, but let's not get into that here. But yeah, anyway, yeah. So that that was that and it's over now.

Jess: 3:23

And yeah, everybody, Sandra is single.

Sandra: 3:27

(laughs) Come at me, ladies, form an orderly queue, please!

Jess: 3:38

Well, you got to use platforms for that. I mean, we always talk about lesbian visibility, but we never talk about lesbian single visibility.

Sandra: 3:49

Yeah. Singledom... Well, as you know, at the beginning of the year, I kind of made a... was it a resolution or was it a target? It was a target, I think... To have as many lovers as I could. And the pandemic hasn't obviously helped with that. - It hasn't delivered... So I'm back on that that tip anyway. So yeah, as I said, ladies, holler at me.

Jess: 4:17

Well, I'm really pleased to hear... and one of the things that I love to talk about and I think we've privately sort of like, talked about it a little bit - is just your story and who you are, and also the beautiful things you bring to the community because you're such a three dimensional and multi layered person. I don't even know where to start. Sandra where do we start?

Sandra: 4:40

Where do we start? Um,...

Jess: 4:42

what were you like as a as a child? I wonder?

Sandra: 4:44

Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my goddess - what was Sandra like as a child....? Well, when I was a little girl, I was very bubbly. And I loved I've always loved reading I've always loved books. I grew uo in a very Christian household. So the Bible was the first book that I read. I mean, when in my house when I was a little girl, there were no books apart from the Bible. There were no books They were just, I mean, now nowadays, I'm sure there's there'd be some sort of child labour law against that. But I was like, let's go. Yeah, I remember spending a lot of time in that library. Or on the first floor of Loughborough Primary School, sorting out all the books. Yeah, I remember that. And I loved it. I absolutely loved every moment of it. But um, yeah, so I read a lot. I was, yeah, a very clever little girl, I was the eldest girl out of five children. And in my house, that meant work. That I was absolutely gorgeous, Oh, my God. That's on the surface. In reality underneath all of that I was really, really sad. I was being abused. From a very early age. I was being abused by my father. I remember the first.... The first time I remember him, putting his hands on me. I was, I was sitting on the carpet with my brother, with my legs crossed - you know, how children sit with their legs crossed. Yeah. So I'm sitting there with my And I used to think it was because I was or am a, you know, a large, curvaceous woman, or girl, way back in the day, I used to think 'fat girls just can't cross their legs'. But you know, I'd go as life went on, I'd see big girls crossing their legs, doing the splits. And I think myself, Well, it's not that...is it? I've got some kind of mental block. I can't cross my legs - I can't do it.

Jess: 8:03

No, no, I'm aware of what you've just shared there. And in a sense, it's interesting, 'cause... I guess what we forget about is how precious childhood is sometimes and how for some of us, it just becomes this minefield of emotional memories and like crossing your legs sounds like like, it's just not gonna happen.

Sandra: 8:24

No, it's no I don't know - I'm working on it. I do a lot of yoga now. And I'm hoping to free up my hips. And yeah, so going, you know, from the age of 10 11, 12 - I think 11 I went to secondary school. By the time I was 13, I had run away. And I was no longer going to school, which was a real shame, because secondary school was great. I always loved school. And I..., in the first year of secondary school, they pulled like..., the head of year pulled aside me, another girl, and this boy, and they had sort of identified us as really bright. And they wanted to... they wanted us to skip a year. And so go from the first year to the third year - just skip second year. And the other two people they didn't want to do it because they were really cool. I I was just like, yeah, bring it on! And... so I did that. And I took some exams early and then I left. So effectively year two of secondary school, I left just after the exam period. I didn't go back.

Jess: 9:46

What was that like?

Sandra: 9:48

Urm - leaving? It was hard. I didn't want to leave. I wanted to go to school.... And this is all stuff that has really been buried until quite recently. You know, I knew that I left.... I basically I left my mom's home to go live with my dad when I was about 11. I ran away from that home when I was around 12. And I ended up living with a family who I didn't really know very well. And they ended up kind of like adopting me - sort of thing. And I knew that that had happened. I knew, I remembered that, but I didn't allow myself to remember the reason why I ended up in that house. I stayed with her for like, three, four years, I didn't allow myself to remember that because obviously, that would have bought up all my repressed issues, which I didn't want to deal with. But I think I was kind of asleep in the park. But anyway, and she could see that, you know, she knew she'd heard... you know what was going on. And so she was like, 'come talk to my mom!' Now Lisa is a mixed race, I don't know if that's a politically correct phrase, .... Anyway this person took me to see her white mom... And her mom, Pauline, I call her my white mum... Pauline, she, she basically took me in and I stayed with them for years, and she kept me safe. One day my dad came looking for me. Must've been - It was a while after I'd got there.... months, maybe eight months, months, maybe even a year. And... I don't know how I knew he was out there. I don't know if I saw his car while I heard it voice or something. And I just shot upstairs. I just I ....you know, this little fat girl never moved so fast! I was shot up the stairs. And I remember him asking after me. She was like: 'No, she's not here!' I remember, I remember that. And later, it was confirmed that I was there. And I think he gave her 20 pounds or something. And she gave it to... she gave she gave it to me and Lisa she said 'Get me a bottle of Bacardi and coke'... 'Get me a bottle of Bacardi bottle of Coke - and spend the rest on sweets for the for yourself and the kids' and and that was that was that. But that was the first place that I was safe. You know, that's the first place. That's the first house I was ever safe it. Yeah, ... Yeah, absolutely.

Jess: 13:36

That's that's so meaningful and moving because some of us will know what that feels like to to not be safe for such a long time. And then to have that first place where you have a bit of security and can just exhale. So you mentioned that. Your white mum, Pauline took you in. But I think one thing we need to clarify - I guess your birth family would have been black, right?

Sandra: 14:01

Absolutely. Yeah. My parents are both from Caribbean islands. And yeah... So I am of Afro-Caribbean extraction Yeah. And so... and it was really interesting as well because, you know, one of the things that my my father had taught me - not my mum but my dad taught me that you you... He used to say to me, not just me to all of us, but he used to say to me that you can't trust white people. No white person will ever be your friend or white people are this and that and everything bad. And I remember the I remember lying in this extremely clean bed in this extremely clean room. You know, and before she even really let me go too far into her house she insisted that I have a bath and she took all my stuff and she washed it all... you know she was a bit of a clean freak our Pauline, bless her. And I just remember lying in that bed and just going over and over with no 'white person will ever be You know just played again and again in my mind -it just you know, ...and that's one of the reasons why I am.... it has been character forming for me. I take people as I find them, you know. I don't... I let people show me who they are. You understand? I'm saying I'm not ...you know, I don't have these big ideas about groups of people. I don't know what they're like I don't I can't say what

Jess: 15:53

That's beautiful! I guess.... You know me in the community. And one thing that I always say is 'individualised on generalise'

Sandra: 15:59

Yes individualise don't generalise- that is a wonderful catchphrase.

Jess: 16:04

I relate to so much of what you just said. And I think there is sort of stigma around childhoods that are marked by difficult experiences - abuse or anything like that. And I think within the community as well, because it also dips into the stigma of mental health. And back in the days in the 1920s, it dipped into other sort of pathologisations. If that even as a word, I'm not sure,...

Sandra: 16:31

I think is.

Jess: 16:32

Thank you, you would know - I wouldn't! So, I've equally been dealing a lot with this idea of what trauma means and the stigma of childhood abuse. But one thing that I find really interesting is the idea of survival skills, and becoming attuned to safety more than others. I'm just struck by the stigma around abuse and families. And it's such a loaded topic, because these days, we are obviously, in times where, you know, 'me, too' is

Sandra: 17:11

Yeah, there's this as you say, there's this stigma. And there's shame. You know,... People who are survivors of child sexual abuse often carry shame. And that's one aspect, then there's this whole sort of, you know, 'don't shame the family' thing. And in our culture, as probably every culture, women are blamed for everything. So you know, yeah, you know, I've heard people say, talking'Oh, she probably enjoyed it', and all kinds of horrible things, which I'm not going to go into, you know, which, which adds to, you know, adds more reasons to not talking. I mean, I literally remember this stuff, six months after I came out, which was like, two and a half, nearly four years ago. So it's quite fresh. But for me, I think it's really important to talk about it, and to raise awareness. Another reason why I didn't talk about it, there's a stigma, there's the shame, and then as, as a, as a lesbian, you know, as a queer person, where sometimes I was gonna say often, but sometimes our sexuality is seen as some sort of illness. And, and people will say stuff like, 'you know, you've probably, you know, been abused or whatever' it's a result of, or, you know, this, 'this sexuality of yours is a result of the trauma that you suffered as a child', which I don't believe is true, you know, and I think it's, it's, it's definitely something that that has stopped me from talking about it. But it's, you know, when you actually think about it, so many people, at least one in four people, at least one four, I believe, it's more than that. At least one in four people are survivors of child sexual abuse. And, you know, the statistics on on queer people in the in the country is what? It's not one in four, right? You know, there's lots of straight people out there who, you know, sadly

Jess: 19:31

I understand very well. I think also what's, what's the issue also, this pathologizing of gay people as victims of abuse essentially, is really problematic, because, as you rightly say, straight people have the same history that clearly the history hasn't made them gay, like sexuality is still a very individual, sometimes sacred and mysterious thing. I think. I think it's not an answer. That I wonder if the nature nurture debate is too simple sometimes. I reckon it's just not a simple answer in any form or shape.

Sandra: 20:10

No. And I think you know, people do change. I don't know nature- nurture.... I mean, when I was a little girl,....

Jess: 20:18

tomato, tomato.....

Sandra: 20:22

(laughs) It's not the same thing. When when I was a little girl. I remember having lots of.... having crushes on girls, like, you know, I never had a cursh on a boy.... That's not true. I did have one. In my early teens, I had a crush on this, this boy called Kenny. But I had this really sort of intense let's call them crushes on girls. You know, I remember two specific ones. I was definitely attracted to girls from an early age. Yeah, I was very much into the female physique. From an early age, I used to spend a lot of time peaking at Page Three. And there was a newspaper called the 'Sunday Sport', which some people may have heard of, which was basically just like a soft porn newspaper. And I'd do everything I could to get my hands on these papers to examine ... the contents. Yeah. So...

Jess: 21:27

I feel I need to add to the story to make you feel less alone. is that okay?

Sandra: 21:32

Please do!

Jess: 21:33

All right. When I was a kid, I had similar sort of like, tendencies. And I remember the first time I walked down hilly road in my village in Bavaria, and there was a ripped out page from a porn magazine. And I stopped in my tracks. And looked down the floor and I thought 'goodness me what is.... what is what is this?' And I picked it up.... Now in COVID times, I would want to tell I sanitised it, but I didn't... I picked it up, I went home with it. And at the time, we had this huge cupboard, and I just hid it behind the cupboard. And then now and then would just take it out for my own entertainment and pleasure....And put it back. And as it as it happens, one day an electrician was called into the flat. I think it was a neighbour, it wasn't even a proper electrician. And I was out I was in school. And as I come home, I see him having moved the cupboard in order to get to one of the outlets. And there in the middle of the room was my precious, ripped out porn magazine page. And I just do the walk of shame and pick it up and chuck it... Retrospectively I'm thinking why the hell did I claim ownership? Why do they claim ownership? Anyway,... that that was so embarrassing, but it was a gay moment for sure.

Sandra: 22:57

Yeah. Absolutely, definitely. I mean, I... yeah, if it wasn't the papers, you know, I used to spend time looking at the top shelf, you know, in news agent's, trying to work out how I could get... how I could get get the magazine out and somehow get it, you know, pay for it and get How could I do this? Obviously, I never did that. And then there was the whole catalogue thing. I spent quite a lot of time....

Jess: 23:36

the laungerie section?

Sandra: 23:37

yeah looking at the laungerie section! (laughs)

Jess: 23:39

We've done the same thing - that's hilarious.

Sandra: 23:42

yeah... perusing those pages! it's all coming out now. Okay, fine.

Jess: 23:54

We've had wine. So bye... it's meant to come out. I't all about coming out, Sandra!

Sandra: 24:02

So yeah, so I feel like nurture .... you know? Nurture really, really, I mean, I was so well programmed. I was programmed, I was programmed, I was programmed to be straight. The whole Christian thing. You know, my mom, traditional hardline Christian, you know, and 'a woman's place within the home - head of the household of the husband' and a wife as supposed to you know, defer to him and serve Him and be obedient and all this bollocks

Jess: 24:34

Bloody hell

Sandra: 24:35

Sorry, yeah, let's let's let's have a top up. And all of this stuff. And so I'm getting that from the Christian side of you know, from my mom and I'm from my dad, I'm being literally groomed and abused to you know, I'm being groomed to accept sex stuff being normalised - it was just awful. So I was...

Jess: 24:59

It's such a discord. On the one hand, there's all the prim and proper stifling values that are sort of really sort of adhering to patriarchy and Christian norms in the sense. And then, on the other hand, the conflation of fatherly love with grooming and other stuff

Sandra: 25:16

Gross. Absolutely. And I, it's just, you know, my mom bless her, she did her best, you know, she's still trapped in that life. But I really feel like if it wasn't for the training that she gave me, I would have ended up as you know, like a prostitute or something? I really believe, you know, because you know, that that was suggested to me once or twice, by by women in that sort of space And this is when I was like, under-age, you know? So I, but I just... was so in fear of God. You know, I really believed that he was he was watching, and he was everywhere, and I would be punished, and it was wrong. And so on... It's what stopped me from choosing to have sex with somebody before I was 16. It was the Christian stuff that stopped me from doing that. You know, I was really sexualized. I really... you know, but I just was so frightened of repercussions, like, sort of like the biblical repercussions, and God is watching. And so yeah, it is interesting. But yeah, the whole stigma and the shame, it's, it's kind of heavy, but I really firmly believe that it's not my shame. You know, I didn't do anything wrong. I was powerless. You understand what I'm saying? I was completely powerless. I remember saying no, and being punished. It was just I'm not... You can't say no, you can't do that. You can't tell me. No. You can't tell me. No. You understand what I'm saying and you're going to get beaten for that! You know, you can't tell me No. And so you just went along with it. It's so hard. You don't have a choice.

Jess: 27:07

You don't have a choice and so hard because little children by nature.... And that's what old Disney films are about - have this intense fear of being parentless. Because that's that's death. You know, that survival is so important for a child to have a parent and then to have a parent that overrides 'No'. And the agency of a body...

Sandra: 27:29

Yes,

Jess: 27:30

...is the biggest dilemma they can be because you on the one hand, want to survive and want to love your parent and want to be there. But you have to switch that off and compartmentalise it and put it in a box for that moment when you need to say no.

Sandra: 27:41

Yeah, yeah.

Jess: 27:42

So um, thanks for sharing that and being so brave and talking about it because it's hard.

Sandra: 27:47

Yeah, it's hard. Audrey Lorde said 'your silence will not protect you', you know, whether I talk or not, ...you know, I'm still going to be punished, because I'm determined to live my life on my terms now. You know, and even if I was going to be a good, you know, a good little woman and still perform as a straight person, you'd still be punished. Patriarchy, excuse me, still punishes women, no matter what we do. You might as well speak!

Jess: 28:16

...And boy I'm hearing you, thank you so much. Now we when we started talking about this, I talked about the different layers to you and who you are today is remarkable, because I know you as a fiercely creative person. I know you as somebody who can sing beautifully. Who writes beyond your reading, you're just so talented, and who's also just just a really fierce and bloody awesome lesbian. So how about how about we talk about you coming out a little bit, because you mentioned it a little bit earlier? How did that happen?

Sandra: 28:47

How did I come out? Well, it was in stages. You know, when I think about it.

I have a daughter. My daughter came out as lesbian when she was 14. She's now 27. Anyway, when she was about 16 she said to me one day, she said: 28:52

'Mom, you know, you're a dyke, don't you?' ...'You know you are a Lesbian!' And I think I was doing the dishes - I was like 'What? What?''What do you mean? Oh my god. What do you mean?' And she was like - 'Yeah you're a dyke -definitely!' Just definitely. And I was like, 'No, I'm not. That'd be ridiculous. How can I be?' Yeah, she's sort of just nodding sagely, you know, sort of like this wise look on her face, you know, and she sort of just walked away. But prior to that, prior to that when she was younger, so she was about 14, then... how old was I? Oh god.... Anyway, I was in my early 30s. So let's say in my early 30s, I had a lover, a real lover, a woman, my first ...my first woman lover, and so that was the first time that I tried to come out. We had this affair that went on for months and months - eight months or something. And she was really into me and she kind of wanted to be part of my life, like, you know, and I just wanted to have sex. And so I kind of posed a question to two of my sisters, or I didn't do... I think I kind of phrased, I'm sure I kind of phrased it as a question or not sure about exactly what I said. I think I said something to the effect of 'I think I'm a lesbian.' Or, or 'I think I'm bisexual.'

No, I'm pretty sure I used the word lesbian. You know? Because like the reaction was: 30:51

'No you can't be - oh my god! No Sandra, you can't! No, no.' Like,... and so it was almost like I was sort of peeping my head over the parapet. And they were like, 'No, no, no!' And pushed me back down. And I allowed them to push me back in the closet - I allowed them to. So yeah, so I kind of sort of broached the topic with two of my sisters. Basically, I told them, I'm having this affair of this woman. So this must mean I'm a lesbian...

Jess: 31:28

You had a Lesbian Affair!

Sandra: 31:35

(laughs) So I was okay. Okay. Okay. Foolishly, I allowed them to shut me down. And I subsequently ended the relationship with this really lovely woman. She was really lovely. She just wanted to love me and I just couldn't let her. I just couldn't let her. Yeah, closed the closet door again. Because let's be frank, I wasn't really... I never really actually came out. I just peed my head out for a little bit.

Jess: 32:02

You tried it out a bit.

Sandra: 32:03

Yeah. So closed the door again. And I had peeked my head out of the door of the closet, closed it again. And then I became really depressed.

One of my sisters, my big sister, was like: 32:12

'You know, you need..., you need to get out Saundra you need to get out and date and you need to... What you need is a man. That's what you need!' So she introduced me to this guy. Yeah, the rest is history. Yeah, so I was... Before long, I was pregnant. And I knew that I didn't want to be in this relationship with this, man. And I knew that I didn't want, you know, to do the whole mommy thing again. But I found myself in this situation. And I just felt like everything was spinning and completely out of control. And I just became more and more depressed. And I just, I just sort of was just carried away by the current of life. You know, I just sort of just went with what was happening after I'd had the baby. And I think I kind of woke up a bit. I found myself being almost married off - and I was You know, that was there was negotiations, and there was meetings between him and my dad. And you know, yeah, yeah.... And I kind of woke up a bit and I shut that shit down, shut down, got rid of the man, but still was still really depressed. And I had made myself forget about my lover - completely just erased from my head.

Jess: 33:43

It's amazing how people can do that.

Sandra: 33:45

Yeah, I kind of got good at that. Because remember, the abuse had been erased so... I kind of put the lover in the same place...

Jess: 33:52

Pack it in a box

Sandra: 33:53

Kinda put it in a similar place to where that other stuff was. And I made myself forget about her. And years went by. And then my daughter was out on the scene. And she would come back and say, 'Oh, I saw such and such a person', my lover, and she'd be like, 'I saw such a such a person. And she was saying, oh, oh, you're you're you'rea lesbian. Are you? Is mother okay of this? Does And she'd come home and told me about it, and I just look at her, - just ignore her. Try to ignore her anyway. But yeah. So fast-forward to 2017... I'm really, really depressed. My daughter's worried about me. I'm so depressed she's really worried about me. I don't do anything but go to work. Do what I have to do in house and and go to my room and smoke myself to oblivion.

So she's really worried about me. She identifies a course that she knows.... Well, she said to herself and her then partner: 34:53

'This would cheer mom up!' It was a writing course. a Master's creative writing course. She identified a scholarship and she sort of, you know, she's like: 'Look at this Mom, do you want to apply for it?'...And I perked up and I applied for it. And I got on. I got the scholarship. And I went, and I started studying at Birkbeck in 2017. Yeah, I should mention that I I used to write a lot in my 20s - throughout my teens, my 20s I used to write a lot. I kept journals, most of which have been destroyed.

Jess: 35:38

How come? Have you destroyed them, or...?

Sandra: 35:40

I think I destroyed them. Yeah. Yeah, let's not go there. Anyway, um, so, I used to write a lot. And then I stopped in my early 30s. When I, after I had my last child, I stopped writing. I was basically punishing myself, you know, because writing is a way for me to process stuff. And I kind of - it just helps me to understand stuff, yeah? So anyway, I used to write a lot - stopped writing. My daughter wanted me to start writing again - she knew that it would be good for me... I got into this course - started writing. And I think the first assignment; I started to write all this, this queer, this queer stuff.

Jess: 36:27

Before you had come out?

Sandra: 36:29

Before I had come out. I was writing,... I was writing stories about women who were being coerced into relationships with men and didn't want to didn't want to be in these relationships. Women who had experienced all kinds trauma and all this gay stuff was coming out. And I remember, because we used to take the stories into class... Everybody would read the stories - you'd submit them before the class, everybody would read them. And in the class - It's called the Writers Workshop....

In the class, we would critique the stories and sort of ...what's good? what's bad? This, that and the other... And the tutor asked me point blank: 37:06

'Why, why is ... why are you writing about queer issues?' She was a lesbian herself, but she was like, 'why?'

Jess: 37:22

Did you get called out for writing about queer issues? Because you allegedly were in queer yourself at that point?

Sandra: 37:27

I don't even know why she asked me that. Maybe that was why maybe that was why...

Jess: 37:31

That's funny.

Sandra: 37:32

You know, I don't know. I don't know. Because she never asked me - You know,... 'are you queer?' She never asked me that question. She just asked me, 'Why are you writing about this stuff?' And I couldn't answer. I felt so uncomfortable. I was like, Yeah, why are you - Sandra? Why are you writing about this stuff? I couldn't answer her. And so I went home and I'm looking at the stories and shortly after that, I I remembered my lover, and that was a big shock. That was a big shock.'What - how the hell do you forget?', you know...

Jess: 38:09

That happened?

Sandra: 38:10

How do you forget this smokin hot love affair? How on earth, Sandra! Anyway, so I remembered that and then I remembered the whole coming out thing that I remembered, you know... Yeah, I remembered actually, Sandra, ...you're actually a lesbian. There is actually no doubt. You know,... this is all bullshit. This performative straightness that you've been doing, for these years! It was like an earthquake, like a really strong earthquake in my life, everything was shaking. And I felt really unstable. Because I spent a lot of time just trying to understand how I could forget about that lover; how I could forget about all of the stuff that I've been through, in regards to my sexuality... And all the ways that I tried to express my sexuality - because I remember in my 20s,... I've remember in my 20s I had a dear dear friend who I was really close to and I was basically And I remember, you know, telling her - expressing my feelings for her.... It was like, she completely blanked me. And, and there were other, you know, times when I had tried to, 'get some' basically... and failed! And urm, and yeah, so it all sort of just came back and I was just like, 'wow, oh my god, this is crazy!' Settling into that was - was it difficult? It wasn't a difficult it was just so strange and I really did feel dazed and confused for quite a while... quite a while... Before I properly settled into my sexual identity. I...like six months after I realised, remember that I love women- six months after that I remembered the child sexual abuse. That was awful. You know, that was really awful. But it was necessary. So basically, I spent the first - I spent 2017 to 2018 in a daze. I spent 2018 to around summer 2019 just sort of really enjoying... just knowing who I am! It was just like 'yeah I'm a lesbian actually! Actually!' Everything makes sense. You know, - why I could not make a straight relationship work. You know, I used to call myself a serial monogamist because I would like ...You know, the relationship of my daughter's dad lasted maybe a year. I was married to my middle son's dad. And that relationship lasted maybe five years, but that's three, four years longer than it should have lasted!

Jess: 41:15

Right - You struggled with it...,

Sandra: 41:18

I really struggled with it. And I was really sort of,... I remember, you know, when when he was born, I sort of promised him that, you know, I was going to make it work with dad. I was going to make it work. I was gonna make sure that he had a dad in the house because obviously that's so important. That's sarcasm. That's sarcasm, by the way.

Jess: 41:35

She's rolling her eyes.

Sandra: 41:38

(laughs) ...And so I I stayed in that for far longer than I should have done because I really wanted to make a success of my marriage. I really, I really enjoyed for the first year or so I really enjoyed saying 'My husband, my husband, my husband!' I really enjoyed it. My mom was so pleased as well: 'Oh Sandra is married! (claps) Oh yes!' ... So my mom was proud of me,... briefly

Jess: 42:08

Sandra! Oh, my goodness.

Sandra: 42:12

So there was so there was that and then.... the last one is that... that barely made it to a year.

Jess: 42:23

The Stepford Wife Model was crumbling!

Sandra: 42:25

It was like, nah. And I really did feel like a failure, like I had, you know, like, I had really failed at the whole relationship thing. And I couldn't work it out. You know, I really couldn't work it out... Why? Why I was so bad at this thing.

Jess: 42:45

I'm pleased to say that Sandra is a lesbian success these days. So that's how it can go.

Sandra: 42:52

Yeah, it's it's been it's been, you know, I mean, I don't want to be too graphic.... But I always wondered, you know, what the big deal about sex was, you know! Why was everybody raving about this thing. Jesus Christ! It's just hard work. God!

Jess: 43:13

It's a chore.

Sandra: 43:14

Oh, God, do we really have to? Oh, God, alright let me have two drinks and, you know, three spliffs then let me get really stoned and then okay, all right, okay....

Jess: 43:25

On the other hand, the luxury catalogue?

Sandra: 43:26

(laughs) Didn't need to be stoned for that is not at all. You know, I mean, I understand. Now, I understand why people rave about sex.

Jess: 43:38

I think you're not alone there.

Sandra: 43:43

Yeah

Jess: 43:43

I mean, we're talking about the power of writing. And you've been in the run for awards with your writing. And there have been amazing moments already. And I'm excited to see what the future holds for you there. But at the same time, one thing that we've mentioned briefly is the idea of singing, as I assume, also a creative resource to digest stuff and to cope. Maybe, would you would you

Sandra: 44:07

I guess, in some ways? Yes. Is is... I get a lot of pleasure from singing. You know, when you sing to an audience, you know, there's this exchange of energy it's really strange. I don't say, I don't know.

Jess: 44:21

It's magical.

Sandra: 44:22

It is! It is some kind of magic - it's definitely a kind of magic. But singing has been sort of touch and go for me. When I was younger. I didn't really have the confidence. It wasn't something that was I was encouraged to do. I never had any training. You know, I yes..., my mother was up in the church, but it's not the sort of church - it wasn't a 'happy clappy' church. You know, there wasn't much singing and the singing that did take place. There was no choir and there was no solos. It was just a sort of group endeavour and it was always kind of, you know,.... kinda like funeral music - It was really depressing to be fair. I remember the first time I went to a Pentecostal church, I was so confused. I was like, 'Damn, this is a party!' You know,..people getting down in the aisles. Choirs up there dancing and singing and yeah, it was completely different from my experience of the church.

The first time I was told that 'you can sing' You know, that: 45:25

'Yeah, Sandra you need to... we need to put you on the stage and you need to sing.' I was about 11 or 12. That was the first time. I really didn't do much performing in my teens.

Jess: 45:43

In my 20s I did, I used to sing like community events, and I used to do weddings, I would sing at the school fetes. And from there, people would ask me, can you do this? Can you do that? But - But though I really enjoyed it, it was it.... it was ... my voice wasn't reliable. Sometimes I would sing and stuff wouldn't come out. I would open my mouth and nothing would come out or really That's a physical thing, isn't it? It's it's very fickle for all of us. It just takes a cold or takes you know a hangover or just being out of breath and feeling a little bit nervous?

Sandra: 46:25

I think confidence. Confidence really! And not being my authentic self not being who I am. I think that really impacted my ability to sing. My voice disappeared for years. It just wouldn't work. In my late 30s when I was really depressed, my voice just disappeared. And I thought I thought it was gone. But it's back - hehehehehe. is back!

Jess: 46:53

Okay, dear, dear listener, something has happened. If you notice a break in the usual conversation, that's because Sandra and I had a couple of drinks because we lost 15 minutes worth of our recording. To be absolutely honest, it wasn't actually a couple of drinks in the space of 15 minutes. It was a whole couple of weeks that passed. So what's happening right now is - Sandra and I are

Sandra: 47:28

Yeah, I thought he wasn't gonna mention the bottle of wine.

Jess: 47:33

So if I remember correctly. When we left off, we were talking about the idea of voice and I have a feeling - the voice is back.

Sandra: 47:40

The voice the voice? The voice (sings) Yeah, we were talking about voice.

Jess: 47:48

Yeah, like how fragile it is? And how,... what what influences your voice?

Sandra: 47:53

Ah, yeah, what influences my voice. Um, well, I had lots of different influences, like musical influences. But what I think is probably more pertinent is the fact that when I was in the closet, I couldn't sing. I guess I could, like sing casually around the house, you know, but but getting up on stage and performing was something that was very difficult for me. And, you know, I used to do it and for a while it was okay - say for in my 20s. But as I got older, it became increasingly hard to perform. There will be times when I would get on stage... I remember I did a funeral. There was a lovely woman who was a friend of my grandmother's who passed away. And I volunteered to sing at her funeral. And I really wanted to sort of do a vocal tribute. This wonderful woman who known my grandmother, who I loved dearly,... and I got up on stage. And I opened my mouth and the most horrible sounds came It was just so bad. And I just couldn't - and it was really really bad because I just couldn't stop making these awful noises. There were a lot of times when I tried to sing and, no, no, no sound came out at all. And after a few times,... after a few cases of this happening, I just stopped trying. And and I just stopped singing I was like, 'Okay, well the voice is gone. ' But once I... once I came out, I found that my voice came back. And I was able to, to sing, you know, just just my voice came back. And that was really reassuring because it's, it's... something that I get a lot of pleasure out of. Something that I in my 20s I was told your voice - it makes me feel like this... And it's it's you know, it's very complimentary, basically. And I was made to But I found it very difficult. I found it impossible, you know, the longer I was in the closet and the more depressed I was, the harder it was to express myself. To express my creativity vocally. It was just, it was impossible. I was just so scared, I think that was a huge part of it - I was scared of myself. And my voice is so tied up with who I am. It just became really, really hard. And I don't know, whether it was self-sabotage, maybe,... because I know that I did that with my writing. I used to say to myself, you know, 'Oh, you're not going to write until... you're not allowed to write until you've done x, y, and z'. You know, and I used to just not write! Lots of different factors came to play in me coming out. And the writing was was a big part of that. It was all happening under the surface. So yeah, my voice is,... yeah, it's really tied up with self expression and being true to myself. And, yeah!

Jess: 51:09

It's really striking and remarkable listening to that, because I think singing in particular, but also writing to a degree is an expression of feelings. Like, whenever I listen to a song, if,... if I don't feel that the person is feeling it, then I am usually put off by it, which is why American Idols and stuff like that doesn't necessarily work for me, because half of the time, also being a

Sandra: 51:37

That's so true. It's so true. It's about feelings. And I was completely cut off from my feelings. I cut myself off from my feelings, because I couldn't... I couldn't do it them. And and again, what you're saying about not enjoying certain performances, because you don't feel like that the person who's performing is connected to the words that they're singing. Again, that's, that's so true. I can't really sing songs that I don't feel connected to. The words have to mean something to me, for me to be able to deliver a performance that I feel like yeah, that's,... that's that will do sort of thing. You know, it's... So yeah, the songs that I sing are not my own. I do not sing my own songs, although I have written a few. I sing songs that don't mean Yeah, there are songs that are really important to me, and have been important to me for years, and I didn't even really realise why. For example, there was a Randy Crawford song. It's an old, old song. I mean, I'm you know, I'm not a young woman.

Jess: 52:43

I know Randy Crawford

Sandra: 52:43

Yeah. Randy Crawford. Yeah! So you know, 'Street Life' and all that

Jess: 52:47

There's another one by her called 'Are you sure?'

Sandra: 52:49

Not that one. I don't know that one. But the Do you know the one - Um, 'I don't want to be normal.'

Jess: 52:54

Yeah.

Sandra: 52:54

Yeah. So I used to sing that all the time. And I used to..., and I never really used to understand why I love this song so much - I'd play on repeat. Oh - What's the lyrics. ...(sings Randy Crawford Song) So that's Randy Crawford. And then there was a Whitney Houston, who I love. I don't know if you've read the book by her... ex lover

Jess: 53:38

Ah, she's one of us, isn't she.

Sandra: 53:40

She's one of us! I was having a conversation with a young woman the other day talking about Whitney. And she was like, 'She's not queer - she wasn't queer, was she?' And I said. Yes, she was. Have you not read the book? Excuse me, and I always, always loved Whitney - always loved her. And...

Jess: 53:58

It's funny you should say that I was very drawn to her not knowing.

Sandra: 54:00

Yeah, we didn't know but we didn't know but there was.... there was whispers! I remember there being whispers about her and her personal assistant,

Jess: 54:08

Robin was her name, right?

Sandra: 54:09

Her name was Robin. And they were always together and the press would follow them around... and shortly after that she got with Bobby Brown, you know, so you have to wonder whether one thing and influenced the other you know, and I think it did. Her song 'I have nothing' is a song that has always been very close to my heart. She has so many wonderful songs. But that song in particular,

Jess: 54:33

I always find myself listening to 'Your love is my love.'

Sandra: 54:35

Your love is my love?

Jess: 54:36

I don't know why I think it's her daughter is in it.

Sandra: 54:39

Oh, God is so sad.

Jess: 54:40

And it just... It's it's heart wrenchingly sad if you know about the story of the two women essentially but at the same time, it's also just such a testament to overcoming life's challenges on a transcendent type of love-based way. I'm sorry, call me cheesy, but I really really enjoy that song.

Sandra: 54:57

Your love is my love.

Jess: 54:59

It's the Bobby Brown era. So it's not the Robin era and I can see you cringing, Sandra!

Sandra: 55:02

Yeah... No I like the song I like the song but um, I really enjoyed 'I have nothing'. The words of the song spoke to me personally talking about you can't run away from yourself. And you know,'don't make me close one more I don't want to hurt anymore.' You know, it was just... it was just a beautiful, beautiful song. But yeah, the Your love is my love' was good. 'Heartbreak Hotel' was

Jess: 55:30

She was I'm also reminded of Nina Simone. And some of the recordings or some of the conversations we've had, we've talked about the Nina Simone a little bit.

Sandra: 55:37

Yeah.

Jess: 55:38

And it's really funny because you and I had a conversation about the concept of freedom only recently, ... because we are like that.

Sandra: 55:44

Yeah.

Jess: 55:44

And you said freedom is the absence of fear. And I was holding back in that conversation at the time, but I'm aware that the lyrics to one Nina Simone song that we always talk about are essentially about freedom, too.

Sandra: 55:56

Indeed it is - indeed it is. So I'm not even sure what the title of that song is. I've always thought of it as the 'points of view song' because of the melody... Well not the melody - the tune that she plays on the piano, but urm... Let me see if I can remember the lyrics having had a few drinks (laughs). Hold on, give me a minute.

Unknown: 56:31

(sings song)

Sandra: 57:32

So yeah, freedom.

Jess: 57:33

Fuck! Every time I hear that I want to cry. It's such a visceral song for me for so many reasons. It's beautiful. Thank you for singing that.

Sandra: 57:42

You're welcome, you're welcome

Jess: 57:44

Have another piece of chocolate.

Sandra: 57:46

Thank you! (laughs)

Jess: 57:49

I want some at this stage. Sandra, it's so special talking to you. Every time I learn so much. And I just... You stir something in me. I feel like we have a lot in common on many different levels.

Sandra: 58:02

I think we do yeah.

Jess: 58:02

Yeah, it's beautiful. But I have to pay justice to the podcast format, which is sometimes a little bit boring because now I'm going to ask you a really formulaic question, which is if you could have a lesbian affair with anybody from past present fiction, history, who would it be?

Sandra: 58:19

Fiction? Oh, I think that's a new category that's just been thrown in there. Fiction..... Mmmm...

Jess: 58:25

We've had it before to be fair, but we have not had many examples of it.

Sandra: 58:29

I don't know. There's so many gorgeous, wonderful women. It's so hard to choose. They don't have to be queer. Do they?

Jess: 58:38

No they don't to be honest,

Sandra: 58:39

But it would help, wouldn't it though? Come on!

Jess: 58:42

Personally.... based on personal preference, I would like to usually choose a woman that I've verified as gay or queer. But some people choose

Sandra: 58:51

...straight women.

Jess: 58:52

Yeah.

Sandra: 58:52

Naaaaah.... (laughs)

Jess: 58:57

I find it more attractive if I know they are queer.

Sandra: 59:01

I don't know, to be fair, you know, I'm gonna sound really highbrow and intellectual now. You know, it's about somebody's mind. You know, somebody's mind - it's the mind of the person that I find attractive. You know, it's not... ... okay, that's a lie. (laughts) It's not a lie. It's not a lie. It's like because.... You can choose several it's fine. If you need to compartmentalise we can do that. Okay, I think I will say Audrey Lord, because she was... And it sounds really bad because I refer to her as 'Auntie Audrey' because obviously, she's an elder. So it's slightly incestuous. Which is really crazy. But she was kind of hot, you know, and she was also really smart!

Jess: 59:40

Yeah, I can see that.

Sandra: 59:42

And so there's this that... I feel bad, but I've said it now. And urm...

Jess: 59:47

For anybody listening, Sandra's nostrils just flaired.

Sandra: 59:51

(laughs) I'm staring into space with a big smile on my face. It's bad, really. And it's probably something that lots of women can relate to. But you know, I'm gonna whisper Yeah?

Jess: 1:00:06

Go closer to the microphone then...

Sandra: 1:00:07

(whispers) Shane from the L Word is kinda hot - I'm sorry (laughs)

Jess: 1:00:11

Oh my gooddness! It's happened!

Sandra: 1:00:15

I'm really sorry. I'm so sorry, it's because I've had a drink, oh my god!

Jess: 1:00:19

It's okay. It's alright. To be fair... I'm glad you didn't say Jenny because I was struggling with this then.

Sandra: 1:00:26

Who the hell is Jenny? (laughs) I'm new to The L Word - I've only ever watched the Q generation

Jess: 1:00:36

Yeah, that's the new season,...

Sandra: 1:00:38

I'm gonna have to buy the other ones because I can't get them on 'NowTV'. We need to hook you up. That's fine. Thank you. Thank you.

Jess: 1:00:47

All right. Well, Sandra, thank you so much for coming on the podcast for the... I don't know how many recordings you've done. You've literally just actually birthed the podcast with me.

Sandra: 1:00:56

Yeah, we have ... long gestation and very painful labour. But yeah, it's been fun. It's been fun. And it's been productive, you know? And it's really good. I've listened to most of them. They're really great.

Jess: 1:01:11

Well, and selfishly speaking, I've gotten to know you better each time. We've tried to be great. So I have a feeling there's a great future. future ahead. And we'll have you know, season two is coming. One of these days. Thank you so much. You're welcome.